Does grading violate the freedom of speech?

Is this newsgroup a public forum?

Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!room206.commstudies.nwu.edu!user
From: jeangoodwin@nwu.edu (Jean Goodwin)
Newsgroups: nwu.school.speech.class.comm-studies.c30
Subject: Is this newsgroup a public forum?
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 09:29:10 -0600

Some of you citizens of this newsgroup may not have realized that several participants here are not in fact registered for the class. These include:

James Kang
Weapon-X
Master of Your Mind

So: should these people be allowed to leaflet in our mall--I mean, to post to our newsgroup? Is our newsgroup a public forum? Why, or why not?

Jean Goodwin.

From: Asher Golden
Newsgroups: nwu.school.speech.class.comm-studies.c30
Subject: Re: Is this newsgroup a public forum?
Date: 14 Feb 1997 19:27:04 GMT

In article jeangoodwin-1402970929100001@room206.commstudies.nwu.edu, jeangoodwin@nwu.edu (Jean Goodwin) wrote:

> Some of you citizens of this newsgroup may not have realized that several
> participants here are not in fact registered for the class. These
> include:
>
> James Kang
> Weapon-X
> Master of Your Mind
>
> So: should these people be allowed to leaflet in our mall--I mean, to
> post to our newsgroup? Is our newsgroup a public forum? Why, or why not?
>
> Jean Goodwin.

Why not??? Just because they are not registered for the class does not mean their input is not valuable. If the situation were reversed and I contributed to another class, I would fight for the right to be a part of the discussion. It is also my right to choose not to read the postings, but it is not your right to ban them.

Re. grading of posted materials... I check into this newsgroup every day and read the posts, but MY posts are not constant and sometimes I will admit I don't have a desire to read my classmate's manifestos nor write one either, but I practice the former rather than the latter. I think it should be noted that even though I and many of my classmates read the poitings, it doesn't mean it drives us to action or to write a response. I have become more informed and have gained new perspectives by reading the posts and that is all I ask for. Anything beyond that is superfluous to me no matter what the grading methods.

Asher.

From: Tony Yee
Newsgroups: nwu.school.speech.class.comm-studies.c30
Subject: Re: Is this newsgroup a public forum?
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 14:35:02 +1000

In article jeangoodwin-1402970929100001@room206.commstudies.nwu.edu, jeangoodwin@nwu.edu (Jean Goodwin) wrote:

> Some of you citizens of this newsgroup may not have realized that several
> participants here are not in fact registered for the class. These include
>
> James Kang
> Weapon-X
> Master of Your Mind
>
> So: should these people be allowed to leaflet in our mall--I mean, to
> post to our newsgroup? Is our newsgroup a public forum? Why, or why not?
>
> Jean Goodwin.

These people should not be allowed to leaflet in our mall. This newsgroup, like the mall, is private property. This is a Northwestern University newsgroup for students of C30 - Freedom of Speech. The students of C30 are paying good money to be enrolled in this class. Why should people not enrolled in this class be able to join in a private discussion that everyone else has to pay for? The people not enrolled in the class are getting benefits they did not pay for.

Tony Yee

From: Meg Pedersen
Newsgroups: nwu.school.speech.class.comm-studies.c30
Subject: Re: Is this newsgroup a public forum?
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 17:37:16 -0600

In article heavy-metal-1502971435020001@libsta115.acns.nwu.edu, Tony Yee wrote:

> In article ,
> jeangoodwin@nwu.edu (Jean Goodwin) wrote:
>
> > Some of you citizens of this newsgroup may not have realized that several
> > participants here are not in fact registered for the class. These
> > include:
> >
> > James Kang
> > Weapon-X
> > Master of Your Mind
> >
> > So: should these people be allowed to leaflet in our mall--I mean, to
> > post to our newsgroup? Is our newsgroup a public forum? Why, or why not?
> >
> > Jean Goodwin.
>
> These people should not be allowed to leaflet in our mall. This
> newsgroup, like the mall, is private property. This is a Northwestern
> University newsgroup for students of C30 - Freedom of Speech. The
> students of C30 are paying good money to be enrolled in this class. Why
> should people not enrolled in this class be able to join in a private
> discussion that everyone else has to pay for? The people not enrolled in
> the class are getting benefits they did not pay for.
>
> Tony Yee

I disagree... This isn't private property, there's no way we can restrict outside persons from posting to our group. The Internet isn't the same as a mall or any other physical place at that... I would expect that there are others that "lurk" about our newsgroup and never post, but read our opinions and aren't paying for our class. Is their silent watching considered trespassing too upon something you've paid for with your parents/financial institutions/own good money?

Northwestern University may own the technology that maintains the capabilities of having this group, but it doesn't own the opinions or persons that can use it and access it. Perhaps I am mistaken, but aren't Northwestern students/faculty/hangers-on the only persons with access to this group anyway? Wouldn't this mean that they've paid good money to Northwestern for their classes and rights to speak too? Since this group is available to all persons with NU access, it is hardly a private discussion. If this discussion was held over a listserv where members had to be accepted into the group in order to discuss the topic, then yes, this would be private. But this newsgroup is the equivalent of sitting in front on the Rock telling passersby what you think about free speech. Those of us that are enrolled in the class are really the only ones that will stop to listen to you, but others might too on their way to other classes, etc.

I'm fairly certain that there are lots of things on this campus that you and I haven't paid for, but are receiving the benefits of... many buildings, services and events. That doesn't mean that we don't have the right to enter the building, utilize the service or take part in the event.

From: Dave Sheldon
Newsgroups: nwu.school.speech.class.comm-studies.c30
Subject: Re: Is this newsgroup a public forum?
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 97 01:46:52 GMT

In article heavy-metal-1502971435020001@libsta115.acns.nwu.edu, Tony Yee wrote:

>These people should not be allowed to leaflet in our mall.

(I liked Meg's response, but I'm going to have to pitch in my $.02 as well, because this is something that I feel strongly about.)

To quote my good friend Stephen Tiszenkel:
"NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO!"

> This
>newsgroup, like the mall, is private property.

No, you're wrong. This newsgroup is no more "private property" than nwu.general is.

> This is a Northwestern
>University newsgroup for students of C30 - Freedom of Speech. The
>students of C30 are paying good money to be enrolled in this class. Why
>should people not enrolled in this class be able to join in a private
>discussion that everyone else has to pay for? The people not enrolled in
>the class are getting benefits they did not pay for.

#1. This is not a private discussion, because this is a newsgroup. Why does nobody seem to understand that?

#2. You had to pay to take the class, you didn't have to pay to post on the newsgroup. You're paying to go to lectures, to be instructed in the principles of freedom of speech, to be evaluated on your participation in class and on this newsgroup, and to be given credit toward graduation upon completing the assignments and exams of the course. These other people are not going to lectures, they aren't receiving any instruction, they aren't being evaluated, and they aren't getting any credit toward graduation. What benefits are they getting? Intellectual stimulation through the free exchange of ideas? Boy, that's terrible. You know that the people who work at Vogelback but aren't enrolled here have access to this newsgroup as well. Should they have to pay to read it? What about the people working at NU-affiliated hospitals, who have access to this newsgroup too? What about the families of professors who use the school for their internet access... should they have to pay, too?

I'm sorry, but it upsets me when people complain because people they didn't intend are posting to "their" newsgroup. It's a lot like complaining because people you don't want around are walking on "your" sidewalk, or sitting too close to "your" section of a park. A newsgroup is a public forum, pure and simple. If you don't believe these people should be posting here, then lobby to moderate the newsgroup, or to put the discussion on FirstClass where only people in the class will have access to it. Otherwise, all you're doing is telling people to stay out of "your" area of the park.

Dave Sheldon

From: Andy McDermott
Newsgroups: nwu.school.speech.class.comm-studies.c30
Subject: Re: Is this newsgroup a public forum?
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 02:19:00 -0600

Jean Goodwin wrote:
>
> Some of you citizens of this newsgroup may not have realized that several
> participants here are not in fact registered for the class. These
> include:
>
> James Kang
> Weapon-X
> Master of Your Mind
>
> So: should these people be allowed to leaflet in our mall--I mean, to
> post to our newsgroup? Is our newsgroup a public forum? Why, or why not?
>
> Jean Goodwin.

Yeah, I think they should be able to participate with us, as long as James Kang duly notes that Freedom of Speech includes the accidental misspellings of words here and there. The poor guy that James cracked on--think of the chilling effect on him, he probably has to double check every word he uses now! Beware James, I'm sure there are classmates out there who will be going over each word in every one of your postings from now on...

Andy McD

From: Dave Sheldon
Newsgroups: nwu.school.speech.class.comm-studies.c30
Subject: Re: Is this newsgroup a public forum?
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 97 09:47:22 GMT
In article, Andy McDermott wrote:

>Jean Goodwin wrote:
[snip]
>> So: should these people be allowed to leaflet in our mall--I mean, to
>> post to our newsgroup? Is our newsgroup a public forum? Why, or why not?
>>
>> Jean Goodwin.
>
> Yeah, I think they should be able to participate with us, as long as James Kang
>duly notes that Freedom of Speech includes the accidental misspellings of words here and
>there. The poor guy that James cracked on--think of the chilling effect on him, he
>probably has to double check every word he uses now! Beware James, I'm sure there are
>classmates out there who will be going over each word in every one of your postings from
>now on...

Ok, I've finally realized what it was that I wanted to say:

What's so bad about this?

Knowing that someone is out there examining every word you type makes you think more about what you are writing. It forces you to check your spelling, and your grammar, and to make sure that your argument holds water. So exactly what speech is being chilled? Bad spelling? Poor grammar? Poorly formed arguments? Do we want speech with these qualities on this newsgroup anyway?

I, personally, write every post, every e-mail, every web page, with these things in the back of my mind. Does it "chill" me? Yeah, I'd say it does. It stops me from posting things that don't make sense. It might make me change the wording of a sentence if I don't know how to spell something. It might make me re-word something so that the meaning is clearer so that people won't misunderstand what I am trying to say. Are these effects bad? I'd say that they aren't.

It is my view that the "Marketplace of Ideas" should be a competetive one. If you state your ideas, and they are insulted, if they are good ideas, you should be able to defend them. If you can't defend them, then maybe they don't deserve their place in the market.

Dave Sheldon

PS: the chilling effects of grading and knowing that people are scrutinizing this post looking for ways to insult me caused me to delete 3 paragraphs from this message. Does this mean that my rights are being infringed upon?

From: jeangoodwin@nwu.edu (Jean Goodwin)
Newsgroups: nwu.school.speech.class.comm-studies.c30
Subject: Re: Is this newsgroup a public forum?
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 09:09:48 -0600

Should people not registered for class be allowed to participate? Here's a summary of what I've heard.

1. "We can't keep them out--this is a newsgroup available throughout the NU system--so it doesn't matter what we think." But, I might reply: the technological form of this discussion is not set in stone. If it was important, I could switch us over to a more private form--like an email-based listserv, or a closed discussion, like with First Class. Or if not this year, I could do it for the class next year. In sum, the publicity of this discussion is not a fact of nature, but a product of human choices. Therefore it can be criticized.

2. "Having the outsiders around is good because they may say something worth hearing and having them watching keeps us on our toes.

" 3. "They don't belong here because they aren't paying for it." Hmmm. This, as pointed out, doesn't quite get to the assymetry between the registered and unregistered. But how about the following?

You in the class seem to feel somewhat constrained in what you say--constrained by the grading system, constrained by the fact that you know each other at least slightly. These outside people are not so constrained. This may allow them to be more irresponsible than you, slinging around gratuitous insults for example. Isn't that an unfair advantage in a debate, where one side has more responsibility than the other?

Jean Goodwin.

From: Meg Pedersen
Newsgroups: nwu.school.speech.class.comm-studies.c30
Subject: Re: Is this newsgroup a public forum?
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 13:35:35 -0600

In article jeangoodwin-1702970909480001@room206.commstudies.nwu.edu, jeangoodwin@nwu.edu (Jean Goodwin) wrote:

> Should people not registered for class be allowed to participate? Here's
> a summary of what I've heard.
[snip]
> 2. "Having the outsiders around is good because they may say something
> worth hearing and having them watching keeps us on our toes."

Hmmm... "Marketplace of ideas" anyone? Maybe we're more like the "Quickie Mart of Ideas", with our lovely TAs working the Slurpee machine (that's a Satisfactory Slushee for you, and a Needs Improvement Icee for you! Hope that they're adequate enough.... Mmmm... just taste that chilling effect! Or is it a brain freeze?)

> 3. "They don't belong here because they aren't paying for it." Hmmm.
> This, as pointed out, doesn't quite get to the assymetry between the
> registered and unregistered. But how about the following?

Does that mean that persons auditing a class shouldn't be allowed to listen to a lecture because they haven't paid for it? Does that mean that the Evanston community shouldn't be able to enjoy the lakefill on a weekend afternoon because they haven't paid for it? This issue of money in regards to knowledge and the sharing of opinion bothers me immensely.

> You in the class seem to feel somewhat constrained in what you
> say--constrained by the grading system, constrained by the fact that you
> know each other at least slightly. These outside people are not so
> constrained. This may allow them to be more irresponsible than you,
> slinging around gratuitous insults for example. Isn't that an unfair
> advantage in a debate, where one side has more responsibility than the
> other?

It may allow them to be more irresponsible than us, but it allows them to express themselves without fear of scrutiny, permitting them to say exactly what they feel instead of watering down their opinion to fit the mold of what the graders are expecting. They don't have to be eloquent, they can be brutally honest and forward. They don't have to post with any sort of frequency, only when they've got something say. They don't have to worry about which opinion is "weakest" or that they're "integrating material learned in class". They don't need to worry about being told they're "inadequate over-all". It would seem to me that there is always one side that bears more responsibility than the other in debate - isn't it the job of the prosecution to prove beyond a reasonable doubt the guilt of a defendant in a court of law? That seems pretty lopsided to me.

Sorry to return to the beating of a quite dead horse, but the phrase "inadequate over-all" was enough to put my butt on ice for the rest of the quarter. Chilling effect? I'd say so, especially when I felt my opinions and agruments were the best I could do on the topics I posted on. Dave mentioned in a past post that he was forced to delete three paragraphs of his writing because of the grading system. The simple fact that sometime down the line, someone is going to decide for him whether or not his opinions were "satisfactory" enough seems to me to be a pretty huge problem for a class on the study of freedom of speech. I'm upset enough to post a hell of a lot now. I guess my lovely TA grader has won this battle. Was that eloquent enough for you?

'Til this damned case of frostbite clears up,

Megan Pedersen

From: that abby girl
Newsgroups: nwu.school.speech.class.comm-studies.c30
Subject: Re: Is this newsgroup a public forum?
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 00:03:43 -0600

heavy-metal@nwu.edu (Tony Yee) wrote:

> These people should not be allowed to leaflet in our mall. This
> newsgroup, like the mall, is private property. This is a Northwestern
> University newsgroup for students of C30 - Freedom of Speech. The
> students of C30 are paying good money to be enrolled in this class. Why
> should people not enrolled in this class be able to join in a private
> discussion that everyone else has to pay for? The people not enrolled in
> the class are getting benefits they did not pay for.

i went to one of my friend's classes today. (a bit crazy, perhaps, but that's not the point.) i sat in the back of the lecture hall, didn't ask any questions or make any comments, nor did i disrupt lecture. did i get benefits i didn't pay for? should i have been kicked out as an imposter? am i simply a bad person?

a thieving abby.

From: that abby girl
Newsgroups: nwu.school.speech.class.comm-studies.c30
Subject: Re: Is this newsgroup a public forum?
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 00:16:33 -0600

jeangoodwin@nwu.edu (Jean Goodwin) wrote:

> 1. "We can't keep them out--this is a newsgroup available throughout the
> NU system--so it doesn't matter what we think." But, I might reply: the
> technological form of this discussion is not set in stone. If it was
> important, I could switch us over to a more private form--like an
> email-based listserv, or a closed discussion, like with First Class. Or
> if not this year, I could do it for the class next year. In sum, the
> publicity of this discussion is not a fact of nature, but a product of
> human choices. Therefore it can be criticized.

i vastly prefer this method of communication to listserv or firstclass based discussion. this may be for personal reasons, but part of it is because of the very reason that people outside the class can look at it. one of my friends has an interest in first amendment issues, and lurk on the newsgroup occasionaly. he has rather different views on things than i do, and will often forward posts to me with his comments attatched. this has been interesting for me, and would be utterly impossible with a class-restricted mode of discussion.

in some ways, this discussion is very restricted. on other, non nwu.* newsgroups i read, the things i write are going to available to be seen by the entire internet-connected world. on those newsgroups, my postings, as well as everyone elses, are also archived, nearly permanently, available for all to search. they become part of my proverbial permanent record. in this newsgroup, i get a grade on them. in other newsgroups, they are something that can be read by potential employers, bored friends, or random strangers. in my view, the chilling effect on this newsgroup is almost nil in comparison.

this newsgroup cannot be read outside of the nwu network. it is only distributed on the news server available to nwu people. anyone reading it has paid some sort of fee to be associated with the university, and is therefore legitimate to be using the computing resources. is providing them with an available source for interesting and possibly thought-provoking discussion really that bad?

> 2. "Having the outsiders around is good because they may say something
> worth hearing and having them watching keeps us on our toes."

i go for the interesting one. as i said before, i don't think the "beeing kept on ones toes" effect is really that strong for this newsgroup.

> 3. "They don't belong here because they aren't paying for it." Hmmm.
> This, as pointed out, doesn't quite get to the assymetry between the
> registered and unregistered. But how about the following?
> You in the class seem to feel somewhat constrained in what you
> say--constrained by the grading system, constrained by the fact that you
> know each other at least slightly. These outside people are not so
> constrained. This may allow them to be more irresponsible than you,
> slinging around gratuitous insults for example. Isn't that an unfair
> advantage in a debate, where one side has more responsibility than the
> other?

i don't think that's a grounds for excluding them. in fact, it's something i've wished i could do- several times i've written a silly, "gratuitous insult" and restrained for the sole reason that i know i'm going to be graded on making snide comments about the spelling of others. i don't think their opportunity to evade the judgement on their speech is a valid reason for denying them that speech. there is always an opportunity to reply to them, either on the newsgroup or in private e-mail (or call them on the phone, if you really feel like it), so views can be defended.

i don't know, this just kind of seems like a backwards argument to me. "they can say more than us, so they shouldn't be able to say anything at all"?

abby.

From: that abby girl
Newsgroups: nwu.school.speech.class.comm-studies.c30
Subject: Re: Is this newsgroup a public forum?
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 00:25:51 -0600

Meg Pedersen wrote:

> Sorry to return to the beating of a quite dead horse, but the phrase
> "inadequate over-all" was enough to put my butt on ice for the rest of the
> quarter. Chilling effect? I'd say so, especially when I felt my opinions
> and agruments were the best I could do on the topics I posted on. Dave
> mentioned in a past post that he was forced to delete three paragraphs of
> his writing because of the grading system. The simple fact that sometime
> down the line, someone is going to decide for him whether or not his
> opinions were "satisfactory" enough seems to me to be a pretty huge
> problem for a class on the study of freedom of speech. I'm upset enough
> to post a hell of a lot now. I guess my lovely TA grader has won this
> battle. Was that eloquent enough for you?

see, i feel a chilling effect in the opposite direction. i'm the kind of girl who thinks that everyone should have an opportunity to know exactly what i think about things, and this is an area in which i have a lot of strong opinions. (hurrah for you, i know you're thinking.) since i also have a lot of computer experience, my natural reaction when i think anything in response to something i read on usenet is to sit down and pound out a reply.

since the recent discussion of grading criteria, etc, i've been kind of reluctant to post, not because i'm terrified of the grade i may receive, but because i'm scared of the rest of you. posts have mentioned comparisons to people who post three times a day- oops, that's me. do i have the right to claim a chilling effect on my postings because people have been pissed?

i did cut several paragraphs from this, not because i was worried about whether they would be judged "satisfactory" or not, but because... i don't know. because i feel less comfortable here than i once did.

abby.

From: Mandy Marie Koppen
Newsgroups: nwu.school.speech.class.comm-studies.c30
Subject: Re: Is this newsgroup a public forum?
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 97 16:34:14 GMT

I know what you're saying, Abby...

>since the recent discussion of grading criteria, etc, i've been kind of
>reluctant to post, not because i'm terrified of the grade i may receive,
>but because i'm scared of the rest of you. posts have mentioned
>comparisons to people who post three times a day- oops, that's me. do i
>have the right to claim a chilling effect on my postings because people
>have been pissed?

>

I, too, have been getting into this newsgroup thing more so than many others, much to my own surprise. In the past, I've listened to the "required listserv/newsgroup/participation" first-day-of-class speech with dread. It *is* hard to do, especially on a constant basis, especially if your access is limited, especially when the other posts don't "move" you, especially if you don't have the time during a busy week or out-of-town weekend to browse through 50 new messages and come up with something fabulous of your own. With this class, too, I was dreading the requirement and nervously trying to find brilliant things to say.

But I have really gotten into it, just as I have really gotten into the class. I really wasn't expected as much -- it just happened. The topics we have discussed have really sparked my interest, and it has become much easier -- and even "fun" (don't get all over me on that one) -- to post. This has been my experience, obviously not everyone's. There *are* very valid reasons for others who don't/can't post as much -- especially in terms of access. As we were only required to post once a week, I believe *that* should be the "regularity of contribution" critera, and if a person posts once a week, s/he should get an "A" for that particular "column". From what I have read on the newsgroup, there has seemed to be some violation of this initial requirement in grading.

But, like Abby said, there has been some indirect attacks on those of us who do post often. Everyone is different, everyone's circumstances are different. We (at least speaking for myself) aren't trying to wave our arms and scream, "Look at me!" to the graders, Professor Goodwin, or the rest of the class. Some of us actually want to participate because we like to and/or have things to say. Please don't criticize us for that.

Mandy Koppen

From: Dave Sheldon
Newsgroups: nwu.school.speech.class.comm-studies.c30
Subject: Re: Is this newsgroup a public forum?
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 97 17:30:39 GMT

Ok, hopefully this will be the last time I post about the NEWSGROUP, as opposed to posting to DISCUSSION on the newsgroup.

Meg Pedersen wrote:

[snip]
> Dave
>mentioned in a past post that he was forced to delete three paragraphs of
>his writing because of the grading system.

Ok. Maybe I wasn't totally clear in that other post. The reason that I cut out those three paragraphs was because they served no other purpose than to insult the person I was responding to. Rest assured that the speech that I choose not to post to this newsgroup because I am being graded would not be welcomed by anyone (except maybe me).

> The simple fact that sometime
>down the line, someone is going to decide for him whether or not his
>opinions were "satisfactory" enough seems to me to be a pretty huge
>problem for a class on the study of freedom of speech.

Hmmm. A "class" on the study of freedom of speech. I would like to know of any other instance when you, or anyone else on this group for that matter, have felt justified in complaining about the fact that your CLASSWORK is being graded. That's what this is. CLASSWORK. Have you used the "chilling effect" topos in the past when you received a grade on an assignment?

It seems to me that complaining about receiving grades for classwork is a lot like, to follow your reliance on convenience store metaphors, complaining that your Slurpee has too much ice in it. (Ok, that didn't make any sense. I just wanted to mimic Brennan's dissent in _Pacifica_, because I thought that phrase was cool. Is that so wrong?)

Dave Sheldon

From: Andy McDermott
Newsgroups: nwu.school.speech.class.comm-studies.c30
Subject: Re: Is this newsgroup a public forum?
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 20:02:11 -0600
> Ok. Maybe I wasn't totally clear in that other post. The reason that I cut
> out those three paragraphs was because they served no other purpose than to
> insult the person I was responding to.

All right Evil Dave, the last thing I want is for you to feel too chilled or oppressed to insult me. I don't know if I've ever been given three full paragraphs- worth of insult in all of my 21 years, it might be kind of fun. So, if you don't want to hurt your grade on the newsgroup, feel free to print out those three paragraphs and just hand them to me in class. That's an easy way to solve your problem of not being able to say what you really feel is necessary to say. I won't grade you, Evil Dave.

I think this might be an example of why I so much prefer to deal with people in person rather than electronically, I can tell so much more about what really makes a person tick when I'm face-to-face with them.

I guess it's just part of who I am or the way I try to live my life, but I never really understand the benefit of insulting someone. Maybe it's because I'm a Christian, but I just want Evil Dave to know that I'm not gonna insult him back or knock him out in class or something senseless like that, on the contrary, I am actually amused by him and enjoy his postings the way he likes to write them, so Dave, don't sell out to the graders and censor your own artistic expression.

-- Andy McDermott

From: that abby girl
Newsgroups: nwu.school.speech.class.comm-studies.c30
Subject: Re: Is this newsgroup a public forum?
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 21:21:44 -0600

**completely off topic, relevant only to the discussion of whether flaming really goes on or if it's a big usenet fable**

Andy McDermott wrote:
> > Ok. Maybe I wasn't totally clear in that other post. The reason that I cut
> > out those three paragraphs was because they served no other purpose than to
> > insult the person I was responding to.
> > All right Evil Dave, the last thing I want is for you to feel
too chilled or oppressed to insult me. I don't know if I've ever been
given three full paragraphs-worth of insult in all of my 21 years, it
might be kind of fun. So, if you don't want to hurt your grade on the
newsgroup, feel free to print out those three paragraphs and just hand
them to me in class. That's an easy way to solve your problem of not
being able to say what you really feel is necessary to say. I won't grade
you, Evil Dave.

see, but part of the fun of posting the comments online is that it allows everyone else to see, point by point, how silly you are. public forum that this is (woohoo! topical content!), people not participating directly in the conversation can wander by and peek in. not everyone following this discussion is posting comments on it, and don't they have a first amendment right to see what dave has to say?

printing out comments and delivering them to you in class would be an alternative remedy that i just don't think has the same effect. i don't think it's an acceptable alternative remedy, if solely because of the difference in audiences reached by the two methods.

> I think this might be an example of why I so much prefer to deal
with people in person rather than electronically, I can tell so much more
about what really makes a person tick when I'm face-to-face with them.

i could use this opportunity to comment that perhaps this preference for face-to-face contact has more to do with your electronic abilities (as demonstrated by misset line length and a lack of alias in the email address) than with the effectiveness of the methods themselves, but i'll refrain.

> I guess it's just part of who I am or the way I try to live my
life, but I never really understand the benefit of insulting someone.

see, that doesn't mean that dave shouldn't Not insult people simply because you find no benefit in it. roman principles and all that.

> Maybe it's because I'm a Christian, but I just want Evil Dave to know
that I'm not gonna insult him back or knock him out in class or something
senseless like that, on the contrary, I am actually amused by him and
enjoy his postings the way he likes to write them, so Dave, don't sell out
to the graders and censor your own artistic expression.

based on this, although i wasn't individually mentioned, i thought i'd ignore the graders for one little post and refrain from censoring my artistic expression. on the other hand, i still feel kind of funny about it, because this newsgroup Is for a class, and i normally try to stay away from petty bickering in my discussion sections. can this just be one big example of how the medium changes everything? :)

abby.

(and i don't have my own cult, but you can pick out a choice phrase from my .sig if you need something to call me.)

From: Andy McDermott
Newsgroups: nwu.school.speech.class.comm-studies.c30
Subject: Re: Is this newsgroup a public forum?
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 23:18:01 -0600
> i could use this opportunity to comment that perhaps this preference
> for face-to-face contact has more to do with your electronic abilities (as
> demonstrated by misset line length and a lack of alias in the email
> address) than with the effectiveness of the methods themselves, but i'll
> refrain.

Thanks for refraining Abby.

But you're right, I am definitely a rookie on the computer. I get lost and make myself look stupid trying to keep up with all of the experienced people, like yourself, but I'm learning all the time.

Anyway, my ignorance is not the reason that I'd prefer to deal with people face-to-face. Don't you ever wonder what someone is really thinking behind all those words on a screen? Like the communication between you and I, for example. Since I have no idea who you are in real life, I don't know how serious you are about the whole newsgroup personality thing and if you are really like this in person. You could be just fronting this whole "angry snatch" deal and really be a friendly person in real life that people like.

There are certainly advantages to the anonymity that Online communication offers, but I guess I'm just saying that I prefer to know who I'm talking to. I'm sure everyone has a different view on this, so this is simply one opinion.

-- Andy McDermott

From: Jenn Gowins
Newsgroups: nwu.school.speech.class.comm-studies.c30
Subject: Re: Is this newsgroup a public forum?
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 19:00:29 -0600

Dave Sheldon wrote:

> Hmmm. A "class" on the study of freedom of speech. I would like to
>know of any other instance when you, or anyone else on this group for
>that matter, have felt justified in complaining about the fact that
>your CLASSWORK is being graded. That's what this is. CLASSWORK. Have
>you used the "chilling effect"
>topos in the past when you received a grade on an assignment?
>
> It seems to me that complaining about receiving grades for classwork
>is a lot like, to follow your reliance on convenience store metaphors,
>complaining that your Slurpee has too much ice in it. (Ok, that didn't
>make any sense. I just wanted to mimic Brennan's dissent in _Pacifica_,
>because I thought that phrase was cool. Is that so wrong?)
>
>Dave Sheldon

I've been thinking about the "responsibleness" of my opinions as of late and I definitely agree with you. This is actually something that I had been tossing around for a day or so when I got to thinking about responses to counter arguments (something that one with a responsible opinion should always do). It really comes down to the fact that it is easier this way. It's always been tempting to try to get out of school work or being graded . . . and this time we have a few topoi working in our favor.

I don't deny the fact that the nature of this newsgroup has chilled me in some sense because my previous arguments still have a ring of truth. But, I suppose my previous arguments were from the me that is still struggling to stand up and scream "here I am" to the world -- at least when it comes to the issues we discuss in this class. Because, in many ways, I am still trying to figure out what I think about a lot of it. And, as Mandy posted in a different set of messages, a lot of it has to do with your personality. I found a reason for why I was quiet around here. A topos, even!

But, just because I understand why I was not so fond of participating doesn't mean that the problem is solved. This is a class, this is class work, and just because I am not exactly bursting with things to say doesn't make me exempt. It is just more of a challenge.

I don't agree with getting rid of the grading in its entirety, but as everyone else has discussed again and again, it could use a little work. Though, I'm not sure that the new revisions are any more clear cut or easy to follow.

Sorry, Dave, I carried the discussion of the group instead of an actual discussion one message further.

Jenn

From: Jenn Gowins
Newsgroups: nwu.school.speech.class.comm-studies.c30
Subject: Re: Is this newsgroup a public forum?
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 20:00:56 -0600

Mandy Marie Koppen wrote:
>
> I know what you're saying, Abby...
>
> >since the recent discussion of grading criteria, etc, i've been kind of
> >reluctant to post, not because i'm terrified of the grade i may receive,
> >but because i'm scared of the rest of you. posts have mentioned
> >comparisons to people who post three times a day- oops, that's me. do i
> >have the right to claim a chilling effect on my postings because people
> >have been pissed?
> >
> I, too, have been getting into this newsgroup thing more so than many others,
> much to my own surprise. In the past, I've listened to the "required
> listserv/newsgroup/participation" first-day-of-class speech with dread. It
> *is* hard to do, especially on a constant basis, especially if your access is
> limited, especially when the other posts don't "move" you, especially if you
> don't have the time during a busy week or out-of-town weekend to browse
> through 50 new messages and come up with something fabulous of your own. With
> this class, too, I was dreading the requirement and nervously trying to find
> brilliant things to say.
> But I have really gotten into it, just as I have really gotten into the class
. > I really wasn't expected as much -- it just happened. The topics we have
> discussed have really sparked my interest, and it has become much easier --
> and even "fun" (don't get all over me on that one) -- to post. This has been
> my experience, obviously not everyone's. There *are* very valid reasons for
> others who don't/can't post as much -- especially in terms of access. As we
> were only required to post once a week, I believe *that* should be the
> "regularity of contribution" critera, and if a person posts once a week, s/he
> should get an "A" for that particular "column". From what I have read on the
> newsgroup, there has seemed to be some violation of this initial requirement
> in grading.
> But, like Abby said, there has been some indirect attacks on those of us who
> do post often. Everyone is different, everyone's circumstances are different.
> We (at least speaking for myself) aren't trying to wave our arms and scream,
> "Look at me!" to the graders, Professor Goodwin, or the rest of the class.
> Some of us actually want to participate because we like to and/or have things
> to say. Please don't criticize us for that.

> My argument in no way meant to criticize those who do post often. If anything, it was more of an analysis of why I don't. Like you said, everyone is different. I can only speak for myself (obviously), but my argument wasn't that the others shouldn't post too much. It was more along the lines of "what if I don't post that much?" And is it fair to grade down someone who doesn't necessarily have a response to every argument. Even if you were waving your arms and screaming for the graders to notice you, that isn't such a bad thing. Either way, you're giving them what they want. It's good to know that it is your terms, though.

Jenn Gowins

From: Tchad Blair
Newsgroups: nwu.school.speech.class.comm-studies.c30
Subject: Re: Is this newsgroup a public forum?
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 19:26:52 -0600

In article , jeangoodwin@nwu.edu (Jean Goodwin) wrote:

> Some of you citizens of this newsgroup may not have realized that several
> participants here are not in fact registered for the class. These
> include:
>
> James Kang
> Weapon-X
> Master of Your Mind
>
> So: should these people be allowed to leaflet in our mall--I mean, to
> post to our newsgroup? Is our newsgroup a public forum? Why, or why not?
>
> Jean Goodwin.

Sure, why not? I was under the impression that this newsgroup was open to the public, so I am not surprised to hear that someone outside this class has been posting. I may be wrong, but I think that was something that you (Prof. Goodwin) expected to happen by creating the newsgroup. I don't think there's a problem with that because we have made everything public by posting to the group. I think if the intention was privacy, another medium would have been chosen, such as First Class. I find it interesting that other people have been intrigued by our discussions and compelled to comment. It's not just our class who has opinions about these subjects, and it's not just our class who may be affected by some of these issues.

Tchad Blair

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